Dependency on erts 5.7.4

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Dependency on erts 5.7.4

Steve Davis
Hi,

Is there any reason to require R13B other than for the "rebar" build tool?

I have some ubuntu servers running and try to use apt exclusively when
administering them -- and the apt package is only up to R12B...

Rebar complains at me that I need 5.7.4 to compile Riak + deps.

Thanks,

Steve

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Re: Dependency on erts 5.7.4

Tuncer Ayaz
On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Steve Davis
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is there any reason to require R13B other than for the "rebar" build
> tool?
>
> I have some ubuntu servers running and try to use apt exclusively
> when administering them -- and the apt package is only up to R12B...
>
> Rebar complains at me that I need 5.7.4 to compile Riak + deps.

Rebar relies on reltool and riak relies on both for building
a rel(ease). The built release will have an embedded erts and
does not use any system-wide erts at all when you run riak.

So you can just copy a riak release over to a system with
or without any Erlang version.

You only need to make sure that the erts used when building
a riak release will run on the target distro/server.

Does this help?

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Re: Dependency on erts 5.7.4

Steve Davis
Hi Tuncer,

Thanks for the reply.

I was intending to run riak on a system that is currently tied to R12.
Looking through the code I couldn't really see any reason, apart from
the use of rebar for the build, why 13B is required for riak. I'll be
honest and say that at closer inspection, the limited use of protobuffs
(one message) didn't seem to justify the dependency on some third party
standard (i.e. google's). Long and short, I simply didn't bother this
time around. I see the removal of Jiak as a positive move toward wider
acceptance. Perhaps the above experience of mine will at least inform
some further improvements in bringing riak to the rest of us.

/s


Tuncer Ayaz wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Steve Davis
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Is there any reason to require R13B other than for the "rebar" build
>> tool?
>>
>> I have some ubuntu servers running and try to use apt exclusively
>> when administering them -- and the apt package is only up to R12B...
>>
>> Rebar complains at me that I need 5.7.4 to compile Riak + deps.
>
> Rebar relies on reltool and riak relies on both for building
> a rel(ease). The built release will have an embedded erts and
> does not use any system-wide erts at all when you run riak.
>
> So you can just copy a riak release over to a system with
> or without any Erlang version.
>
> You only need to make sure that the erts used when building
> a riak release will run on the target distro/server.
>
> Does this help?
>


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Re: Dependency on erts 5.7.4

Justin Sheehy
Hi, Steve.

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Steve Davis
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I was intending to run riak on a system that is currently tied to R12.

You can, as long as you use a Riak release that was built on a machine
with R13, since that will produce an embedded node that doesn't care
about any separately installed Erlang.

> Looking through the code I couldn't really see any reason, apart from the
> use of rebar for the build, why 13B is required for riak.

I'd say that the build and packaging system is more than reason
enough, but one of the other good ones is performance.  The amount of
performance improvement relevant to Riak from R12 to R13 is quite
significant -- so much so that I suspect we'd constantly be advising
people to "try it on R13" if we also supported R12.

In order to remove your concern entirely, we will soon be providing
pre-built binary packages for a number of operating systems.  With
those, there will be no external dependency on any version of Erlang
at all, so this issue should become moot for you.

> I'll be honest and say that at closer inspection, the limited use of protobuffs
> didn't seem to justify the dependency on some third party standard

I'm not sure what kind of justification is needed in choosing an
internal message format that clients don't ever have to deal with and
that doesn't require you to install anything external.  I am
interested to hear what made you see this as a practical downside.

Best,

-Justin

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Re: Dependency on erts 5.7.4

Steve Davis
Hi Justin,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Justin Sheehy wrote:

> Hi, Steve.
>
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Steve Davis
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I was intending to run riak on a system that is currently tied to R12.
>
> You can, as long as you use a Riak release that was built on a machine
> with R13, since that will produce an embedded node that doesn't care
> about any separately installed Erlang.

I may put some time aside to do this, or wait for the pre-build version
you mentioned.

>> Looking through the code I couldn't really see any reason, apart from the
>> use of rebar for the build, why 13B is required for riak.
>
> I'd say that the build and packaging system is more than reason
> enough, but one of the other good ones is performance.  The amount of
> performance improvement relevant to Riak from R12 to R13 is quite
> significant -- so much so that I suspect we'd constantly be advising
> people to "try it on R13" if we also supported R12.

For larger-scale/production work, I could certainly dedicate a machine.
For evaluation, as I'm sure you are aware, you generally have to take
what you're given. So the R13 requirement failed me at the first hurdle.

> In order to remove your concern entirely, we will soon be providing
> pre-built binary packages for a number of operating systems.  With
> those, there will be no external dependency on any version of Erlang
> at all, so this issue should become moot for you.
>
>> I'll be honest and say that at closer inspection, the limited use of protobuffs
>> didn't seem to justify the dependency on some third party standard
>
> I'm not sure what kind of justification is needed in choosing an
> internal message format that clients don't ever have to deal with and
> that doesn't require you to install anything external.  I am
> interested to hear what made you see this as a practical downside.

I see it as an unnecessary dependency on something 'Google', which makes
certain legal-eagles with extensive MS experience shiver in their boots
at what may happen in the future.

This may not be representative of the wider experience, but it was
certainly my own.

Regards,
Steve



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Re: Dependency on erts 5.7.4

Vick Khera
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:16 PM, Steve Davis
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> For larger-scale/production work, I could certainly dedicate a machine. For
> evaluation, as I'm sure you are aware, you generally have to take what
> you're given. So the R13 requirement failed me at the first hurdle.

I use virtual machines for any evaluation work.  Just clone an
existing one, mess it up all you want testing out whatever software
you've got, then chuck it.  VMware is my first choice, and VirtualBox
second.  Heck you could run 3 or 4 and evaluate the distribution and
replication features of riak that way.  Any modern desktop can easily
handle that.

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Re: Dependency on erts 5.7.4

Justin Sheehy
In reply to this post by Steve Davis
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:16 PM, Steve Davis
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I'm not sure what kind of justification is needed in choosing an
>> internal message format that clients don't ever have to deal with and
>> that doesn't require you to install anything external.  I am
>> interested to hear what made you see this as a practical downside.
>
> I see it as an unnecessary dependency on something 'Google', which makes
> certain legal-eagles with extensive MS experience shiver in their boots at
> what may happen in the future.

If your lawyers are more concerned by which company designed a message
format than about the legal encumbrances (or lack thereof) on the use
of that format... then you need new lawyers.

There is absolutely nothing about the use of the protobuf format to
justify a shiver.

-Justin



p.s. - Given the depth of your concerns, you might want to reconsider
your choice of email hosting provider.

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